Question on AOE attacks

Can a model hit itself with an AOE attack?

I do not see anything in the rules that says no.

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I don’t see why not, and they always have in previous editions.

With the blast damage, yes. With the direct hit, no.

As a fun note, a magical AoE with Fionna and a non-magical AoE with the Wastelander can result in the attacking model being directly hit by the AoE.

It’s a big feel bad with the Deep Freeze on the Khador heavy who can stationary himself if he shoots. Dual attack not so good for him.

I think the weapon should great cold immunity too really.

Considering how powerful of an effect Stationary is I could see that being a fair tradeoff though; if you want this very strong effect you give up some utility of Dual Attack.

Could see that one go either way.

That’s a theoretical problem, sure, but I think it’s a non-issue in practice.

Just don’t shoot that gun at something that close. :slightly_smiling_face:

But you’ll miss and just do blast damage to the low arm thing right? Everyone knows how this ends up.

I have no idea what you’re getting at. :slight_smile:

The gun is pretty fantastic by itself. Having a minor corner-case drawback does not mean there’s a problem in need of a solution.

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I think its a negative play feature of the weapon. Its short range - it misses alot - and if you use it and melee, 100% chance that you’ll be stationary, even if you just tried to blast the gobber next to with a power 8 which will kill it - but on no, you always roll a crit, hit and loose the rest of your activation. very disappointing.

I’m fairly sure its the worst right arm, and has a negative play thing - that is unpleasant and very memorable when it comes up (100% of the time)

I’m a little confused here. I wouldn’t classify RNG 12 as short range, that’s pretty much dead average for guns in Warmachine. It’s actually higher than most of the guns on the Great Bear.

Secondly it’s not a 100% chance to stationary in melee. Stationary only happens on a Critical Hit, which is a hit with two of the same number on the dice. The Deep Freezer doesn’t have Pistol so it’s already at -4 to hit if you’re attacking a model that’s engaging the Great Bear in melee, so the odds of hitting in the first place are fairly low, let alone critting. If you miss the attack than no one is Stationary and the initial target just takes a POW 8 cold damage roll.

It is certainly possible for the Great Bear to make itself Stationary with the Deep Freezer, but it would have to be shooting at something within 2" of it, if that thing is in melee with the Great Bear it’s effectively RAT 1, so you’d have to roll very high AND get a crit in order for the attack to make the Great Bear Stationary. In your example if you’re trying to clear out a gobber who would die to POW 8 blast damage than simply don’t boost to hit and you have very good odds of missing, meaning that only the gobber would take a damage roll and no models would be made Stationary.

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Whoa whoa, slow down there, fella! We’ve gotta break this down a bit.

Welcome to Khador; have you ever played with us before? :stuck_out_tongue:

Khador warjack ranged weapons have always been shorter-range compared to other ranged Cohort models in other armies. RNG 14 was the absolute maximum Khador ever got, ever, and even then that was only on three models. (Destroyer, Behemoth, Black Ivan.)

RNG 12 is pretty darn respectable!

Welcome to Khador; have you ever played with us before? :stuck_out_tongue:

Khador started out with RAT 3.

RAT 3. :stuck_out_tongue:

The faction got an increase to RAT 5 this edition! Be grateful! :slight_smile:

That is claim is not reflective of reality. :slight_smile: If you intend hyperbole, that’s fine, but it’s unclear.

If you’re saying that in earnest, then you have some sort of rules misunderstanding.

Um… Huh?
Again: this is either hyperbolic, or a serious rules misunderstanding. The odds of critically hitting a target in melee with RAT 5 are on the downward side of “pretty bad”.

Is this an oblique reference to that “A critical miss is also a critical hit” rules nonsense that popped up on Facebook like 5-6 months ago? If so, that whole thread’s premise was wrong. Whoever cooked that up failed to read down to the next paragraph in the rules. :slight_smile:

I can state with absolute certainty that this does not come up 100% of the time. :slight_smile:

Here’s the important part, tying in to what I originally said a couple posts ago: if you’re worried about this that much, just don’t shoot at something that close.

You are not required to make all your initial attacks. All of the “make an attack” menu choices under “Combat Actions” must be read with an implicit “can”, otherwise nonsensical, unresolvable scenarios present themselves immediately.

So: skip your initial ranged attack with the Deep Freezer and start buying additional melee attacks. It’s that simple.

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Experience shows that the Rat1 jack will get a crit on its target, when fired in melee 100% of the time if it’s going to make you loose 3 focus and the game. Very reliable.

The point is, this gun which is often Range 9 it seems, Should be able to be safely fired in melee like nearly every other weapon. Most knockdown weapons are steady, or immune to electricity for example. Models that can shoot themselves for negative effect are quite rare. It’s bad and shouldn’t be allowed.

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On the understanding that you want a fun and accessible game, rather than something else.

So it’s hyperbole, then. Got it. :stuck_out_tongue:

Math to the rescue!

Let’s try the optimal case, of attacking a DEF 10 Khador Great Bear with your gun in melee.

The opposing Great Bear is effectively DEF 14, meaning you need to roll a 9 or better to hit.
There’s no way to crit on either a 9 or an 11, so on an unboosted roll, you must roll either 5+5 or 6+6.

That means that only 2/36 possible combinations critically hit, which equates to a ≈27.78% chance to hit and ≈5.5% chance to crit.

Which, conversely, means you have 34/36 chances not to crit, or a ≈94.44% chance that you’re totally safe from accidentally making yourself stationary. :slight_smile:

And, if you’re that worried about that ≈5.5% chance: don’t fire the gun against a target you’re in melee with. See my previous post about that. :slight_smile:

And, this is the best case! Anything DEF 12 base or higher immediately sees that gun drop to a 6+6 auto-hit roll being the only possible chance of landing a crit, dropping those crit odds to 1/36, or ≈2.8%.

…Unless you boost, of course, but given how worried you are about making yourself stationary, that seems like a poor decision. :slight_smile:

“Often” is a pretty subjective term. Let’s not go down that path, because it’s an unverifiable claim. For every RNG-reducing army build, I’m sure somebody - but not me because I already know where this is going :stuck_out_tongue: - can present you with 2.5 counter-examples where that functionality isn’t and can’t be present. :slight_smile:

Who says? :slight_smile:

Why is it bad?

Maybe you don’t like that risk vs. reward chance, but you are not every single player of the game. Where you see a fatal hard-stop flaw, I’ll bet money that somebody else sees a fun, risky play that could pay off and win a game or blow up in their face spectacularly.

Who are you to say that this other person is wrong? :slight_smile:

Setting aside the fact that Cygnar’s lightning immunity is part of their core identity and is therefore not valid for this discussion: you should both qualify and quantify that claim. Hand-waving ephemeral panic is useless as a basis for rational discussion. Go out and look up every instance of a gun with an AOE that potentially has negative effects, post your numbers, and let’s compare.

Once the actual data is present, I believe we’ll see that Cygnar’s lightning immunity on their handful of electrical damage AOE (and AOE-like) weapons is very much an outlier, and that “most” claim is not, in fact, true. :slight_smile:

See above. Do the legwork and we’ll find out! :slight_smile:
And, again: if you’re that worried about a ≈2.8 - 5.5% chance, don’t choose to fire your crit stationary gun.


One last thing. I’ll say it explicitly, although it seems like this should be implicitly understood.

If your intent is to convey “I don’t like the risk inherent in this choice”, that is perfectly fine! I have absolutely no beef with that opinion. Just say that. :slight_smile:

If you are trying to argue that this risk is a universally reviled concept, you’re going to have a hard - one might even generously say “impossible” - time selling that. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Have you tried it? And found it fun?

I’ve tried it and not found it fun. And I’ve seen other people have the same issue.

I keep coming back to your comment about the Great Bear making itself Stationary 100% of the time while in melee and I can’t figure out if you’re being hyperbolic because you dislike the rule or if you dislike the rule because you’re misunderstanding something that’s making you believe that is actually how the rule works. If you are misunderstanding I’d like to help correct that to see if you would enjoy the model more.

So for the sake of clarity, can you please tell me whether or not you are being literal when you say that the Great Bear will make itself Stationary 100% of the time if it fires the Deep Freezer in melee?

I’ve seen it happen 3 times out of 3 times. Its like 1 in a million things happening much more often than you’d expect. It shouldn’t happen very often - hitting in combat is very unlikey for a non-pistol rat5 model, but because of dice - if you do hit - a def 11 thing say (so 15) you rolled a 10+ which is quite likely to be a crit. 5/5 4/6 6/4 5/6 6/5 6/6 So only 33% likely to make itself stationary if it hits. If the thing you shooting is Def 13 base, you need 6/6 so if you hit at all you 100% of the time become stationary.

So if you lucky - you actually unlucky. Which is the bit that sucks.

The same applies to Mule. And yes, I’ve managed to crit devastate myself with it.