Ricochet and Shield Guard

I have a question on how ricochet is meant to resolve with shield guards.

Ricochet - When a model is directly hit an enemy model with and attack with this weapon, immediately after the attack is resolved this model can make another ranged attack with this weapon targeting another model within 4" of the model originally hit, ignoring LOS and this weapon’s RNG. Attacks gained from Ricochet cannot generate additional attacks from Ricochet.

The situation is as follows . Kishtaar shoots a Void Engine and hits the model. a soulless guardian shield guards the attack. The soulless guardian dies as a result. Does the Ricochet ability trigger?
I believe the intent was yes that is why the word originally was added to the description of Ricochet. I believe it is understood that if the soulless guardian was the original model hit and die the ricochet would not happen. However, in the previous scenario the originally hit model is the Void Engine.
It appears that ricochet was never meant to have a work around.

Ricochet will not trigger in your example. The Shield Guard model (the Soulless Guardian) was hit/directly hit/etc. instead of the model you originally targeted.

The Shield Guard model “suffers all effects”, and “being the model to Ricochet from” is one of those effects. (“Effects” either includes everything or nothing; there’s no textual core rules support that defines what is and is not an “effect.” If you make one exception, then we eventually end up with a completely arbitrary list of things the Shield Guard model does and does not suffer, which is needless complexity.)

Bonus reference:

Double-bonus preemptive call to @elswickchuck , because I’ll lay 9.8-to-1 odds that somebody’s going to ask for an Infernal ruling anyway. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Is the issue the word “originally” in “originally hit” in the Ricochet rules?

We are currently working on the wording to reflect how it should function.

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I’m not seeing why ricochet wouldn’t trigger.
The shield guarded model has been directly hit. That should trigger ricochet’s requirements for a model to be directly hit.

The originally only comes up when choosing the model to be hit by the second ricochet attack. I don’t know if the original target or the shield guard were ‘originally’ hit, but by my read one of them would be.

Ricochet won’t trigger if the Shield Guard dies. This is because the model is no longer on the table to measure from after the attack.
If the Shield Guard model lives, Ricochet will trigger off the model that used Shield Guard, not the model originally targeted.

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Trick shot used to be worded that it triggered on hit.

Ah, I missed that in the example the shield guard died.

That doesn’t sound right since it triggers on hit? Also, what if it’s not shield-guarded, but the original model dies, does it also not trigger?

I believe that originally may be the problem.

If the original model dies that it does not trigger.

You can’t measure from a model that is no longer on the table. Ricochet occurs after the attack is resolved, which would be after the model is removed from the table.

We will look into changing the wording but you aren’t going to get a different answer than what has been given.

The following cases can happen.
A. The model you attacked is hit and doesn’t die. You get a Ricochet.
B. The model you attacked is hit and is destroyed. You do not get a Ricochet.
C. You attack a model, some effect like Shield Guard or Sacrificial Pawn changes the model hit, if that new model doesn’t die, you measure from it and get a Ricochet.
D. You attack a model, some effect like Shield Guard or Sacrificial Pawn changes the model hit, the new model is destroyed, you don’t get a Ricochet.

I will say that abilities that punish you for rolling well feel bad.

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(I know it’s off-topic, and I preemptively beg pardon.)

(Also, weird, it ate the “Reply” portion, to tagging @SoulSamurai )

I agree with the design philosophy presented, but I think it is misapplied in this case. :slightly_smiling_face:

You wouldn’t have a warjack charge in and try to get a crucial “Beat Back into range of their Leader” off a single-wound ARM 14 warrior model, right? This is the same scenario. If you choose to shoot a single-wound model at dice-1, you know going in that Ricochet isn’t going to trigger. If there’s a disposable chaff Shield Guard model nearby (as in the original scenario that started this thread), you know up-front that the opponent is going to Shield Guard the attack against the more valuable model, and you know that Ricochet is not going to trigger.

There have definitely been scenarios in the game in the past that caused the feel-bads if you were doing well, but I don’t think this is one of them. :slightly_smiling_face:

Well I disagree with you. It’s a magic bullet that hits one person and then magically flies off into another. Except that sometimes it doesn’t because the first guy died. If he ALMOST died, maybe even Toughing and being knocked down, it flies into someone else. If he ACTUALLY dies, it doesn’t. And all because of some very minor order-of-operations weirdness in the way the rule was written? Like, the rule doesn’t say “If the hit model is not destroyed, attack another model”.

So yeah, to me it feels bad. It’s like a weird reroll, instead of what it FEELS like it SHOULD be, which is two attacks.

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I seem to recall some abilities (e.g. Soul Strike) in Mk2 and Mk3 that were written similar to Ricohet, and were ruled by Infernals to still work, you just measured distance before removing the destroyed model from the table.

An easy fix (if one were intended) would be something like: “On a direct hit, you can choose an enemy model within 2” of the model directly hit. After the attakc is resolved […]"

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I dunno what to tell you, man. :slight_smile: It’s a conditional free second attack, and the condition is “Don’t kill the guy you hit first.” Seems as easy as that to me!

(I mean, really: it was your fault for killing the guy in the first place. You killed him SO HARD that your axe/spear/chakram/bullet/squid/whatever got stuck, and that was just poor decision-making. :stuck_out_tongue: )