Initial attacks and charging

So yeah, If a model loses its initial attacks, from things like powder keg spell or stagger, can they charge?

I see this as no they cannot bc charging calls out initials. but could see it get the movement bonus, and able to buy normal attacks (not charge attacks)

Nothing in the rules you quoted requires the first melee attack to be an initial attack.

So you choose initial melee attacks for your combat action, make the 0 attacks available, buy a melee attack, and that is your charge attack.

The charging model cannot satisfy the requirements to make initial melee attack or a special melee attack, though.

Preemptively tagging our pal, @elswickchuck, for clarification of intent.

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Screenshot 2024-04-08 at 22-16-27 Initial attacks and charging - Warmachine - Privateer Press

clipped for reference. It calls out ‘must use Initials’. I’d also say you cannot choose your initials if you lose them. but thats why I raise the question, I can see different interpretations or intentions

Thats my understanding of it as well.

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It has been ruled before that you can charge in this situation.

We will be using the same ruling here

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So, just to make sure everything is spelled out:

You can charge, meaning “you can make the charge movement,” correct?

If you buy an attack, is your first attack a charge attack, or not?

The Charge rules say that the first melee attack against the Charge target is a Charge Attack. It doesn’t specify the source of the attack or any other limitations.

I know, but would be happier to hear that from an Infernal, as this might be a case of intent rather than strict RAW. :slightly_smiling_face:

(I am perfectly content if that is the answer, mind you. I would be happy if Stagger/etc. is no longer a complete “your combat action might as well not exist” like it effectively used to be.)

You charge movement completes, if you can buy an extra melee attack then you may make it and then if its the first melee attack it will be a charge attack

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Thanks, Chuck! Appreciate the reply!

I appreciate the feedback.
Do you have the link to said ruling? Id like to see the reasoning for the intention of the rule. I couldn’t find it from searching.

but it does specify source of attack AND limitations, " The charging model must use its Combat Action to make either initial melee attacks or special attack with a melee weapon." Source - melee weapon and initial attacks/special attack, Limitation- must use combat action and melee initials.

Which is why I’m curious about the intention and interactions. :star_struck:

Just FYI in case you were not aware: Chuck / elswichchuck is an Infernal (note the green name and “Infernal” tag), which means he’s an official source of rules and rulings.

(Aside from that: I’m pretty sure the answer is “The charging model is choosing the ‘Make initial melee attacks’ option from the menu, loses the ability to make those initial attacks due to Powder Keg/etc., and can then buy additional attacks as per the additional attacks rules.” It’s consistent with everything in your screenshots; we just didn’t know the intent of “loses its initial attacks”, whether it meant “Cannot choose the ‘Make initial attacks’ option” or just meant what it sounds like it means, which is “You just don’t get those free attacks with your weapons before you have to buy additionals.”)

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The previous ruling is from the old forums back in the mkiii days. So im sorry i do not.

But mainly it comes down to the rationale explained here as to what you are doing during your action

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I appreciate that bud! I am familiar with the Infernal crew, Ive been around since the old Black and Orange mk1 forums. Always like a good discourse on how rules work and how they are written, learn the different interpretations and raw. Its always good to see people helping folks outs. :love_you_gesture:

Womp womp, dang. I’d really like to see that, but it’s understandable. Again, Appreciate the reply Chuck!

Our local group started back up and I’ve been reading all the new rules and interactions. Will go forward with this understanding.

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And always feel free to ask or message me to look at a rules thread if i havent replied

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