Dual attack and charge

[JQam1]

Hi, it’s been a topic of discussion and I feel requires an official ruling at this point. Warjack with dual attack charges a model, successful charge, before making its melee charge attack can the warjack make its initial range attack angainst the model charged and then continue on with its initial melee charge attack?

[Malkav13]

Yes. The first melee attack needs to be against the Charge target, but nothing says you must do melee attacks first.

[JQam1]

I agree and that’s how I been doing it. But to many people arguing otherwise leads me here for clarification.

[Michael]

Here’s the text of Dual Attack:

@Dual Attack

This model can make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation. When this model makes its initial melee attacks, it can also make its initial ranged attacks. This model cannot make ranged attacks after making a power attack.

Here are the relevant parts of the Charge rule. I’m quoting Independent Model Charges, but it’s the same for units.

@Charge

A charging model with its charge target in its melee range at the end of its charge movement has made a successful charge. The charging model must use its Combat Action to make either initial melee attacks or a special attack with a melee weapon.

The charging model’s first melee attack after ending its charge movement must target the model it charged.
…

If a charging model ends its charge movement without its charge target in its melee range, it has made a failed charge. If a model makes a failed charge during its activation, its activation ends.
…

The Charge rule says you “must use its Combat Action to make … initial melee attacks”. You are choosing to make initial melee attacks (that is: you chose the “Make one initial attack with each of its melee weapons.” option from the menu of Combat Actions), so the requirement to use Dual Attack is met. You can make your initial ranged attacks during your combat action.

Further, the Charge rule specifies "The charging model’s first melee attack after ending its charge movement must target the model it charged. "

In neither case does the rule say “The first attack must be a melee attack”, only that the first melee attack needs to target the model it charged.

Dual Attack’s requirements are fulfilled, the model is able to make initial attacks, so the player gets to make either initial ranged or initial melee attacks in any order, with the only real requirement being that the first melee attack must target the model charged.

If, for example, you destroy your charge target with your initial ranged attacks, then this applies:

@Charge

If the charging model did not fail its charge and cannot make its first melee attack against the charge target, the charging model can make its first melee attack against another eligible target. In
that case, its first melee attack damage roll is not automatically boosted.

That’s about as clear-cut as I can make it.

[elswickchuck]

Malkav and Michael are correct

[SoulSamurai]

“This model cannot make ranged attacks after making a power attack.”

Does that mean a model with dual attack can make ranged attacks BEFORE making a power attack? I assume not, but I’m suddenly curious.

[Kapoteeni]

No, because if you choose to make a power attack, you’re not choosing to make your initial melee attacks. So not fulfilling the requirement for Dual attack to trigger.

[SoulSamurai]

I don’t really see how you HAVE to make your melee attacks to “trigger” Dual Attack? It says “This model can make melee and ranged attacks in the same activation”. So making ranged attacks doesn’t prevent you from making melee attacks. The fact that it needs a special clause to prevent you from making ranged attacks AFTER a power attack suggests that nothing in the rest of the rule prevents you from making both power attacks and ranged attacks. Of course it all depends on the wording for power attacks (which I can’t be bothered to look up right now); if you specifically make power attacks instead of melee attacks then that shouldn’t prevent you from doing other things you could have otherwise done, i.e. making a ranged attack.

To be clear I’m just debating for fun, not because I actually believe one way or the other.

[Robert]

Surely the next sentence of the dual attack wording (quoted in a previous response) makes it clear you have to be using your initial melee attacks to also be able to use your initial ranged attacks. Power attacks are in place of your initial melee attacks, so dual attack does not trigger. So you can’t use your ranged initials first if you are going to forfeit your initial melee attacks to do a power attack.

[Malkav13]

Dual Attack requires the model to be making Initial Melee attacks though.
Also, if a model had Chain Attack, which allows it to make a Power Attack, then it would lose the ability to shoot afterwards as it made a power attack.

[Michael]

Hey Soul!

I thought I had quoted this earlier in this thread, but I guess it was a different thread. Here’s why it works this way:

@Combat Actions

After completing its Normal Movement, a model makes its Combat Action. A model chooses one of the following options when making its Combat Action:
• Forfeit its Combat Action.
• Make one initial attack with each of its melee weapons.
• Make a number of initial attacks with each of its ranged weapons equal to the weapons’ rate of fre (ROF).
• Make one special attack (* Attack) allowed by its special rules.
• Make one special action (* Action) allowed by its special rules.
• Make one power attack allowed by its special rules (p. 24).

Unless noted otherwise, a model cannot make both melee and ranged attacks in the same Combat Action.

So, when a model makes its combat action, it picks one selection from that menu. You have to pick “Make one initial attack with each of its melee weapons.” in order for Dual Attack to trigger.

It’s technically one hundred percent legal to choose “Make one initial attack with each of its melee weapons.” while there are no enemy models in range, then choose not to make your initial melee attacks due to not having valid targets, and then use Dual Attack to make your initial ranged attacks. (There’s a fine distinction between that and just choosing to make initial ranged attacks, but it’s technically possible. I can’t think of a good reason to do it, though. )

So, we have two reasons why power attacks and ranged attacks are incompatible during the same activation:

1. Because Dual Attack says so, both implicitly (“you have to make initial melee attacks…”) and explicitly (“you can’t make ranged attacks after a power attack”).
2. Because the menu of Combat Actions doesn’t allow it.

[SoulSamurai]

@Robert

Surely the next sentence of the dual attack wording (quoted in a previous response) makes it clear you have to be using your initial melee attacks to also be able to use your initial ranged attacks.

Not necessarily, it doesn’t explicitly say you HAVE to make melee attacks and could simply be clarifying that you need to make all your initials before buying more attacks (so you can’t buy melee attacks and THEN make your initial ranged attacks).

[SoulSamurai]

@Michael

So, when a model makes its combat action, it picks one selection from that menu. You have to pick “Make one initial attack with each of its melee weapons.” in order for Dual Attack to trigger.

I didn’t really take Dual Attack as a “triggered” ability, but rather as a “passive”. Having said that I see what you’re saying: according the the Combat Actions list a power or special attack does not count as making an initial melee attack, so it does not fulfill the conditions to make a ranged attack with Dual Attack.

I figured that would be the case, I just felt it would be worth clarifying since we’re on the topic and I couldn’t be bothered to look up and parse the rules myself. And TBH it would have been fun to find a loophole.

[Kapoteeni]

Yeah, you don’t have to make any melee attacks, but to use Dual Attack, you need to pick the “make initial melee attacks” choice as your Combat Action, which is mutually exclusive with power attacks, special attacks or special actions, as listed by Michael above.