Hazaroth1 has a few abilities which seem like they are supposed to work together, but maybe don’t?
Hazaroth has Vampiric: When this model destroys a living or undead model with a melee or ranged attack, he can heal.
He also has Overtake: When this model destroys one or more enemy models with a basic melee attack during its Combat Action, he can move.
His Hellrazor has Deathly Domination: When this weapon boxes a living or undead non-leader enemy warrior model, you can take control of that model, then it is destroyed and RFP’ed.
My question is: If Hazaroth makes an initial attack with Hellrazor and that attack boxes an enemy warrior model, and he chooses to trigger Deathly Domination, does Overtake and/or Vampiric also trigger?
I have heard multiple interpretations:
- Deathly Domination causes the destruction of the model, not the attack. So neither Overtake nor Vampiric will trigger.
- Deathly Domination is an effect on the weapon he used to box the model, so the destruction of the model as a result of Deathly Domination is still “destroyed with an attack”. Therefore both Overtake and Vampiric will trigger. If this wasn’t the case, then Electro Leap wouldn’t need to specify that its damage isn’t caused by an attack.
- Same as #2, but the possessed model is technically friendly when it is destroyed, so Vampiric triggers but Overtake does not.
Everyone I ask has a different very confident answer, but I’ve never found an actual ruling on which it is. Does anyone know what the actual design intent of Hazaroth was with regards to these abilities, and whether or not destruction as the result of an effect on a weapon counts as being destroyed by that weapon?
Deathly dominion does not work against overtake and vampiric. The reason is the order in which models reach certain stages after they hit zero hit boxes. The relevant section is Disabled, Boxed, Destroyed in the rules. Effectively, deathly dominion removes from play after destroyed, thereby triggering vampiric and overtake before that rfp happens. Since both vampiric and overtake trigger “when” Destroyed happens, and deathly dominion specifies the model reaches the Destroyed step, all three rules can trigger, and then the zero hit box model is removed from play. The use of “then” in deathly dominion also clarifies the timing of destroyed is after the stage at which you take control of the model, meaning it’s no longer friendly upon reaching destroyed
I’m with you on the boxed model reaching destroyed and therefore triggering effects that happen when it is destroyed, but is it “destroyed by an attack”? If it is destroyed by an attack, because it’s attached to the weapon he used to box the model, then I would agree that Overtake/Vampiric would trigger. But if it just kind of spontaneously gets destroyed because the rule Deathly Domination is itself not actually an attack, then I imagine they wouldn’t. It’s not clear which one it is.
An example of something that wouldn’t work would be Electro Leap, which explicitly says that the damage it deals is not considered to be from an attack. So a model which is disabled by Electro Leap would be destroyed and trigger on-destroy effects (like generating a corpse), but would not trigger abilities which trigger when destroying a model with an attack (like Vampiric). Conversely, Deathly Domination does not say that it doesn’t count as an attack, but it does destroy the model. Does that mean the destruction of the model is part of the attack?
Deathly dominion is an effect of the weapon profile (and does not specify anything about the effect not coming from at attack), therefore it is part of the attack. We’re it a rule on the model profile and not the weapon profile, it would not trigger overtake or vampiric
Granted, this isn’t specifically spelled out in the rules, but the lack of a clarifying clause like with electroleap implies it triggers overtake and vampiric
I want you to be right, because that feels the most intuitive interpretation - and I play it that way. I just wish there was a formal answer I can point to because it comes up each and every game and everyone has such strong conflicting opinions about it.
Thanks! Thinking more about this, there are other implications. If Deathly Domination does not count as being destroyed by the attack, then Hazaroth’s other rules do not work with it. However that would also mean that Deathly Domination would allow Hazaroth to circumvent all “when a model is destroyed by an attack” rules, like vengeance or inhuman resolve. I am excited to find out what the intention is.
Dreadguard archers also have vampiric and deathly domination.
So vampiric and over take will not trigger off of a model destroyed by deathly domain. That is the ruling for this
However it is internal’s intent that they do, but for now they will not until wording is created to match this intent
Thank you! That explains why this was so hard to figure out.
Fair enough, I am curious though does the reading fall in line with interpretation number 1 then?
Yeah. Similar interactions (or non-interactions) have happened in the past editions of the game as well. I don’t have the exact rules in front of me right now, but if memory serves me, the term “skornergy” originated from a very similar case.