Thresher on the Charge all boosted?

[DASchretz]

Sorry if this should be a Subthread.

Per the infernal ruling ( Thresher vs Wolfe Feat - #9 by elswickchuck ) in this thread Thresher vs Wolfe Feat , Thresher is 1 Special Attack that generates multiple attack and attack damage rolls.

If Ryvyn Charges an enemy model and targets it (and multiple other models around the target) with Thresher, would this not imply that ALL the attack rolls are boosted (Cavalry Charge rule) and boosted damage (charge attack rules).

If not, why not? and how does this situation differ from 1 attack, 1 trigger for Wolfe Feat?

[gedditoffme]

“if the attack hits, the damage roll against the charge target is automatically boosted”
Not familiar with the ruling you’re referencing, but this clause specifies that only the charge target takes a boosted damage roll. Not sure how that interacts with the cavalry charge rule.

[DASchretz]

The ruling is from a previous thread that states Thresher is 1 attack (no matter how many models it destroys) for the purpose of Wolfe’s feat.

Cavalry charge says all charge attack rolls are boosted. If thresher targeting 1 model is 1 attack that generates additional attacks, and itself is the Charge attack, why would the other generated attacks not also be boosted?

[Saramin]

I think the distinction is between attack and attack roll. The Thresher attack can have multiple attack rolls. and only the charge target is subject to a charge attack roll.

[Michael]

Saramin has it! Only one model is being charged, and only one model is the charge target. Ryvyn might make multiple attack rolls thanks to Thresher, but only one model can and does satisfy the above ”charge target” conditions.

[DASchretz]

That definitely is why I posted the previous ruling link. Because the only model TARGETED by Thresher (1 attack, remember) is my charge target, as the rules require Ryvyn to target that model with an attack. Thresher (single attack per the previous ruling) is then described as making melee attacks against every model in range/LOS. There is no additional targeting. If my single attack (Thresher) targets 1 model (the one I charged) why then are not all of the sub-attacks bound by the same rules for charges?
Basically, if Wolfe only gets 1 trigger from my thresher because it’s 1 attack with multiple steps, how then is that same logic not applied to a Cavalry model getting boosted attack rolls when Charging with thresher?

[Michael]

Those are two separate things.

Thresher counts a 1 attack, per the Wolfe thread.

Nothing says all the Thresher attacks are charge attacks, though.

How many models did Rassyk charge? Just one, because the rules only allow a charge to target one single model.

The only charge attack is against the model targeted with a charge, because that’s what the rules demonstrate. Absolutely nothing under Independent Model Charges says you can target and charge multiple models; every single occurrence of “target” and “model” is singular. If you could target multiple models with a charge, the rules would say that, because Warmachine rules only tell you what you can do, not every single possible thing you cannot do.

Maybe it would be helpful to frame this slightly differently, and then you’ll see why any bonuses to the Thresher rolls must be evaluated independently of one another. Here’s another example that should make this clear:

Take, for example, the legacy Khador warjack Beast-09. Beast-09 has both Thresher and Murderous. There’s a warrior model surrounded by several warjacks and an enemy structure. Beast-09 targets the warrior model with a charge and charges it. Beast opts to use Thresher.

Beast-09’s Murderous rule gives it an additional die on melee attack rolls against warrior models.

Beast-09 is charging a warrior model; it obviously gets the benefits of Murderous against the charge target because it is a warrior model, but would it get the benefit of Murderous against the non-warrior models potentially hit by its Thresher? No, because those models are not warrior models.

Likewise, only one model is targeted by a charge. Only one model can be targeted with the charge attack, by definition, because only one model can be targeted by the charge. Even if Thresher is treated as one single attack for timing purposes, only one attack is against the charge target.

(We could also easily concoct a scenario where a rule like Watcher advances a model that was an invalid charge target into range of the Thresher, and it’s pretty easy to see why an attack against such a model could not possibly be a charge attack.)

[elswickchuck]

Charging with thresher will not count all the attacks made as charge attacks

[DASchretz]

I understand your logic, I’m still not seeing how the logic applied to Wolfe Feat and your logic jibe.

However, I now have an Infernal ruling to point to when this question comes up later, so that’s all I needed.

[elswickchuck]

For wolf its called out “one or more”

Meaning thresher is one attack that meets the clause and thus 1 or more is applied in that its kne attack and can only trigger one instance of this example

You have in the thresher example only one charge target

[cpt_amazing]

This is quite simple. If you read the charge rules in detail, an attack becomes a charge attack it is the first melee attack made against the charge target. Because none of the other models were charge targets, the melee attacks made against them are not charge attacks because they were not charge targets