Defense/Battle formation and slams

[SchattenSoldat]

So this question came up recently in my LGS. If a models with defense/battle formation (Rassyk or Athena) is collided with by a model in their battle group that has been slammed, assuming they are not already in contact with some other model in their battlegroup, will they fall down?

Personally, I think there are two answers to this:

1. If the model is still in contact with the caster in question after resolving the movement of the slammed model (they landed ON the caster) neither will be knocked down.
2. if the slammed model is not in base contact with the caster in question after being moved by the slam (they passed through but did not land on the caster) the caster would be knocked down, as they are not in base contact with a model in their battlegroup.

This is based upon the idea that none of the other effects of a slam are resolved until after the model being moved is placed in its final position, i.e. you don’t stop partway through the model’s movement to determine what they have collided with and knock those models down.

Am I missing something here or is this correct?

[Michael]

I’ll answer this for the scenario of Athena’s Defense Formation rule and Slammed, because the other rule and permutations are highly similar.

@Defense Formation

While in this model’s control range and B2B with one or more models in its battlegroup, models in this model’s battlegroup gain +2 ARM and cannot become knocked down.

And here’s what Slammed has to say:

@Slammed

Sometimes models are slammed as a result of a spell or attack. When a model is slammed, it is moved a certain distance directly away from the point of origin of the slam (usually the attacker) then becomes knocked down (p. 34).
… The slammed model then suffers a damage roll determined by the spell or attack that caused the slam.
… A slammed model moves through models with smaller bases than its own. …

So the first scenario: a model in Athena’s battlegroup is slammed, and ends up B2B with another model in her battlegroup in her control range.

The slam movement is resolved in Step 7 of the Attack Main Sequence on the Timing chart (7. Resolve all other effects triggered by hitting or missing.). When moved, the slammed model goes from not being B2B to being B2B.

Once the slammed model is B2B, Defense Formation applies, and it cannot be knocked down and gains +2 ARM.

Because Slammed tells us to move the model first and then knock it down, we do exactly that. Once the model is B2B, it cannot be knocked down. Rule Priority demonstrates that the “cannot” in Defense Formation overrides the standard (implied) “must” in the Slammed rules, and thus the model is not knocked down.

Additionally, because the slam movement is resolved prior to making the damage rolls in Step 8 of the Timing chart, the slammed model gains the +2 ARM benefit while resolving the damage.

The slammed model is not knocked down, and assuming it collided with and remains B2B with an equal or smaller-sized model in the same battlegroup in Athena’s control range, the other model is not knocked down either.

As for your second scenario: a model in Athena’s battlegroup is slammed, contacts a smaller-based model during the slam movement, and continues moving. After the slam movement, the slammed model does not end up B2B with any other models in the battlegroup.

The slammed model is not B2B with another model when the slam movement finishes, and Slammed tells us to move the model first and then knock it down. The slammed model cannot benefit from Defense Formation because it is not B2B with an appropriate model.

The slammed model moved through the smaller-based model. Slammed doesn’t say to stop and resolve anything during the slam movement, so you do not.

So: the slammed model is moved, ends that movement without being B2B, and is knocked down. Because it passed through a smaller-based model during that movement, and because the smaller-based model is not B2B, the smaller-based model is knocked down. Neither model benefits from the +2 ARM when moving on to Step 8.

Hope this helps!

[SchattenSoldat]

See, I agree with your interpretation, would love to get confirmation from an Infernal or PP staffer just to have that little bit of authority for the locals who disagreed with me.

[Kapoteeni]

The rules (which should be the ultimate authority) already tell you exactly how this works. Move the model first, then knockdown.

[Michael]

I’m pretty confident that this is correct.

It might be best if the players who disagreed come over here to post their rationale. That way, we can help the people who have the misunderstanding firsthand.

[SchattenSoldat]

Keep in mind, my question focuses more on what happens to the models the slammed model collides with, and while I agree that none of the models involved are knocked down until after the slammed model is finished moving, the rule is less clear about when models a slammed model collides with are knocked down, hence the disagreement on whether the caster in question would be knocked down by having a cohort model slammed into them.

[SaltTitan]

edit: Michael is correct I believe, nothing is resolved until the movement is finished so they wouldn’t be B2B when you determine if they should be knocked down.