Unit Movement : “When a unit advances as part of its normal movement - wether making a full advance, run, or charge - choose one trooper model in the unit to move. Troopers are placed simultaneously.”
My question is : troopers are placed simultaneously to what? To the trooper that moved or to themselves (meaning the troopers that did not make the move)?
Slam and Trample power attacks : “Slam combines a model’s Normal Movement and Combat Action” and “A trample combines a model’s Normal Movement and Combat Action”.
My question is : assuming a warjack with plenty of focus to spare is making either of these power attacks, can it or can it not make additionnal melee attacks after? Also, how would you justify it?
Slam and Trample power attacks : based on the same quote. If an effect knocks down the slamming/trampling model after it’s movement, does it still get to make the slam/trample attack?
The placement is simultaneous for trigger purposes. That means there’s effectively no timing chart interrupt between “the initial model finishes moving” and “place the rest of the models in the unit.” You get to move the whole unit and it would only count as one single trigger for something like Defensive Strike.
You can buy melee attacks after slamming or trampling. The part you quoted is not “hard rules” text but is written that way more like a conceptual reminder: “you’re using both your movement and combat action to do this, so you can’t move first and then decide to slam, or try to make a * Attack after slamming, or something like that.”
I’d need to check the timing chart and have a concrete example case where this could happen. Free strikes don’t exist, and counter-slam is gone too (unless I missed something?), and I can’t think of any known feats or spells that would cause knockdown like that.
Interesting. Regarding #1, I had thought that a model with admonition could move after the first model in the unit completed its move and before the other models in the unit were placed. Without that, admonition becomes useless, as a 3-man unit can surround the model to prevent it moving.
For point 3, Bartolo’s feat or an Inverter under Watcher will do it just fine.
As for point 2, if you are using your combat action to do something, then you don’t have it anymore and shouldn’t be able to attack further. I don’t understand it not being “hard rules”. Are you perhaps a developper for the game? Otherwise it’s a bit of a hard sell to say that the rules as written do not mean what is written. No offense though, I’m still thankful for anyone trying to help me.
If you do not have a combat action left you cannot buy attacks, that is also a rule though, hence my question. In more details, if you make a throw or headbutt attack, then yes you can as those do not use (or combine) the combat action as a whole, just the initial attacks.
It is the reason you can’t make a slam if you forfeited either movement or action (the sentence direct after that).
Nowhere is written that your combat action immediately ends after the slam.
I was posting from a phone earlier, so making proper rules quotes was impractical.
As far as I can tell, model placement happens at Step 5 of Activation Timing:
Previously, Admonition/whatever potentially could trigger every time a trooper in a unit was placed. This opened the potential for “gotcha!” exploitative tactics, like waiting until a couple of the models had been placed, then triggering Admonition to advance and make the movement of the rest of the models impossible, thus causing them to be destroyed essentially non-interactively. That’s a feel-bad moment.
So, now, there’s no multiple iterations through Step 5. One model moves, all the models are placed, Step 5 triggers.
As to whether this makes Admonition/etc. useless: I couldn’t say because I have never encountered this in a real game.
If it’s actually a problem in a real game situation, I encourage you to document it, compose your thoughts, and send an email to feedback@privateerpress.com.
I am not a developer. However, I’ve been around for essentially the entire evolution of the rule set, and I feel like I generally know why the rules exist in the specific form as they do today.
In this particular case: I will state with 95% confidence that this was added to explicitly address a painfully common misconception throughout most of MK I and MK II, specifically. People always tried to charge and make a throw power attack, or to slam and make a * attack, or whatever other permutation you can name.
MK III’s rules included a literal menu selection of “You can do these specific things during your combat action”. MK III is also where this particular wording first appeared, and this clarified a lot of the “But I thought I could…” questions that came up before.
In general, the MK IV rulebook takes great pains to provide examples and spell out, in non-technical, conceptual language, what the rules do, much more so than previous editions.
The important part here is the very next sentence that was not quoted:
In this case, the first sentence explains the concept, and the second sentence provides the actual, technical rules details that provide concrete meaning. By itself, “A slam combines a model’s Normal Movement and Combat Action.” does not actually tell you anything meaningful about how to perform a Slam or anything else about the rest of the model’s activation. It doesn’t say, one way or anther, whether you can make additional attacks after successfully completing your slam movement.
As I mentioned in another reply a few minutes ago, I was posting from a phone at the time and couldn’t really make any rules quotes. As another poster mentioned, this is very explicitly answered under “Additional Attacks” on page 18:
And, we know that warcasters, warlocks, warjacks, and warbeasts have these rules, because they’re mentioned shortly afterward:
No worries! Like I said, it’s all but impossible to quote and provide rules citations from a phone. Also, crafting proper replies takes some time.
Making a slam or trample power attack does not make you forfeit your Combat Action. They “combine normal movement and combat action”, meaning you’re making your combat action. And as those power attacks do not state that your combat action immediately ends after resolving the power attack, you’re still in the process of resolving your combat action, and as such, you can do stuff you could do during your combat action.
The reason you’re not still in the process of resolving your normal movement after a slam or trample is because both power attacks specify that the attacks occur after the model has finished its movement. So you can’t use more “during this model’s normal movement” abilities after a slam or trample power attack.
The wording isn’t quite as solid as I’d like, and I agree that it could be clarified further, but this is basically “how it has always worked”.
(Disclaimer: I’m not a developer either, but I’ve been an active member of rules discussions on the old forums since Mk1, served as a judge at some tournaments, and I’ve usually been right in my rules interpretations.)
Thank you very much for the thorough reply, very insightful. I guess my issue in the end was that “to combine” means that multiple things become one (to unite, to fuse), and thus both would begin and end at the same time. If this had been the case, there would have been no Combat Action left with which to buy attacks (as these are not “any time during activation” abilities.
I notified my players of this clarification and I hope we can move on to the next rule issue XD
Thank you again, you have indeed helped me!
To be honest I think I’m lost in here. I thought that previously you moved one model of a unit and then placed the rest one at a time (so Defensive strike would happen after each individual placement). And I thought the change was to just change all of the placing to happen at the same time but not at the same time as the first model moved.
If that’s the case why there’s even a different rule covering the situation where the moving model is destroyed telling you to select another model to move instead?
The change says the placement of all the models is simultaneous, and as far as I can tell, the only time when that placement can happen on the timing chart is on Step 5. So, unless somebody can show me the error in that reasoning, I can only conclude that there’s no time to resolve a trigger between “the moving model ends is movement” and “place the models.”
The moving model could potentially be destroyed by moving through a hazard, or into a damaging feat, or something of that nature. It’s another bit of proofing against losing an entire unit in a 100% passive fashion due to a rules “gotcha.”
The slam (and other power attack rules) say the “combines your movement and attack” bits, but then goes on to elaborate exactly what happens, in which order, and what circumstances allow your combat action to continue and what causes it to end. Successfully slamming a model does not end your combat action, simply because it does not say it ends your combat action, and that’s why Additional Attacks are valid.
(And, just because it might be relevant: all of this happens in Step 6 of the Activation Timing chart, “The model makes its Combat Action.” )
The wording could be better. Simultaneous with what? The movement of the moving model, or just placing the other troopers?
I could imagine the placement happening in Step 4 because the wording is “after determining the model’s movement” rather than “after the model ends its movement”. This would clearly make placement happen before any “ends its movement” triggers.
But even if it happens at Step 5, active player effects are resolved first, so models are placed before Admonition, Defensive strike etc. could trigger.
I believe the only answer that makes sense is “simultaneous with the moving model ending its movement.” Otherwise, it’s entirely possible to construct a situation where some or all of the remaining unit members can’t be placed and are destroyed.
The most obvious is “Defensive Strike” – the moving model must have finished moving in order to trigger Defensive Strike.
If the opponent is allowed to trigger Defensive Strike after the moving model has ended its movement, but before the unit is placed, I contend that does not allow this to trigger:
Because the above rules quote says “the moving model” (present tense), not “the moved model” (past tense), this only applies during movement, not after movement has ended.
If that were allowed, we’d be back to a “For Sergei!” situation.*
Step 4 is “The model makes its Normal Movement.” It doesn’t make sense to try to place models at this time, because the model hasn’t yet finished moving. Allowing models to be placed before the moving model has finished moving opens up a lot of other issues, so I think that can’t be a sensible interpretation.
I agree with your thought that Step 5 is the most sensible place, due to active player effects allowing placement before triggered inactive player effects.
Apologies for belaboring the point, everyone! I’m trying to make certain that I explain my reasoning as best as possible.
* That’s an obscure reference, I know. I’ll try to write something humorous about it later.
