Volume for LoS one way or both ways

Hi.
Debates on volume LoS have somehow resurfaced and I would like a clarification or official answer.
The LoS and volume part of the rules say you have LoS if “you can draw a line from any part of model A’s volume to any part of model B’s volume”.
However the examples mention walls of different size that block LoS to a model. See:

This wall is taller than 1.75" but shorter than 2.25". It will block line of sight to small-based models behind it.

This seems to contradict the volume to volume. Let’s say the wall is exactly 1.76" high, any medium based model will be able to draw a line over the wall from the top of its volume to the top of a small-based model behind the wall.
In a similar way, if the wall were 2.24" high, it would make it impossible to draw a line from a small-based model’s volume to a medium-based model’s volume over it.

Because of the impracticality of drawing straight lines in thin air between abstract cylinders and also because of the use of 2D terrain, people tend to simplify this rule one way or another, but not everybody agrees on the “convention” to follow.

  • Some people decide that some pieces of terrain will block LoS to models of a given base size (working in the same way as intervening models, so a medium-sized terrain will block LoS to small out medium based models) but I dislike this as it contradicts the volume rules (under which if you can see a larger based model over a wall, it can see you too)
  • Some people, myself included, prefer to not use any train that would block LoS unless it blocks LoS to and from everything (everything is treated as either below 1.75" or over 5"), this way we can play without bending the volume rules while not having to argue about straight lines in thin air.

I would accept the other way if it were supported in the rules, but apart from Huge-based models and clouds/forests, no terrain blocks LoS only one way.

Is the intent to actually have terrain now work the same as intervening models? It would take some getting used to, but I would love for LoS rules to become easier to use.

PS: should I send this as a feedback email too or is here enough?

Hi John, is this a question about Warmachine Mk4 or Warcaster: Neo Mechanika?

Oops, sorry, I somehow failed to add the tag. Edited to add it: Warmachine mk4

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I’ve read the initial question four times now, and I still don’t understand the question. :slight_smile:

Models of a certain base size have a certain volume, as shown below:

And here is the chart you are referencing:

And, here’s the other diagram from that page:

I think your question is something along the lines of “Can a huge-based model draw LOS to a small-based model that is behind a 1.75” wall?"

My only generic answer is: in my experience, it is almost always played as in the “wall” rule book example: terrain of a certain height blocks LOS to models of a particular base size, regardless of the model it is being drawn from. (I.e., LOS is uni-directional, not omni-directional.) This is not technically correct, but it simplifies the play experience.

Feel free to tag in Chuck if you need an official ruling. :slight_smile:

Yeah that’s the question. I’ve never played it this way, only using obstructions that block LoS both ways. I’m told there was a mk2 or mk3 ruling by DarkLegacy in the old forums that said things that blocks like of sight only one way do exist. My question is: do they? Is that how we should be playing? Have I been wrong all these years?! :scream:
@elswickchuck ?

Im sorry to ask but im still misunderstanding the question

The question boils down to a contradiction in how we’re supposed to use volumetric LOS with regard to intervening 3D terrain.

I can position a huge based model and a small based model with a 3" tall wall between them in such a way that I can draw a line from the top of the huge based model’s volume to the top of the small based model’s volume, and that line will not pass through the 3" wall.

According to the written LOS rules, each model should have LOS to the other in this scenario.

But according to the illustration showing various models behind different sized walls, a wall that is taller than 1.75" blocks LOS to small based models behind it, period.

So which is correct?

For what it’s worth, I’ve always treated the illustration as assuming that the attacking model is of equal or smaller size compared to the target, but it doesn’t say that.

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Let me sum it up to one example:

Courser (40mm, 2.25" high)
Terrain piece (2.29" high)
Great Bear (50mm)

Which is correct?

  • According to volume rules, I say Courser has line of sight to Great Bear and Great Bear has line of sight to Courser (line from top of its volume to top of Courser’s volume goes over the terrain, not through)
  • Some people claim the terrain blocks line of sight to the Courser but the Courser can see the Great Bear.

In past editions I’m pretty sure the only volume that mattered was the target’s, which is why if you bunched small bases up against a colossal the colossal couldn’t see anyone in the second row. But I’m pretty sure they didn’t have that last diagram about LOS & Terrain back then

You’re thinking of drawing LOS from one model to another through intervening models (not terrain).

Volume-to-Volume LOS (with intervening terrain) has been a thing, including this discrepancy, since at least Mk2.

Here’s an excerpt from the 2011 printing of Prime MkII:

I will double check but i believe its the written rules instead of the diagram

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Part of the confusion here is the examples given all refer to “walls” which have their own set of terrain rules that don’t allow them to block line of sight.

It would be more appropriate to refocus this conversation on hills which are stated in their rules as “can block line of sight” which infers it depends on the height of the hill. This is leading TO’s to classify the height of hills for their players. Although some TO’s also just say “hills don’t block line of sight” as a blanket rule for ease too.

EXAMPLE QUESTION:
If a huge based model is trying to draw line of sight over a 1.75" tall hill, can it see small bases on the other side? Neither miniature is on the hill in this example.

It’s being played in tournaments currently as “no” but we need to know whether this is correct or not.

Nope, they’re the same. Terrain that can block LoS depends on size and volume.

When we get an official ruling bud, we’ll know for sure.

Nothing fully official yet

But it is currently leaning towards “written” as mentioned before

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