Shadowtongue Feat - Casting an animus twice

Under Shadowtongues feat it states “A beast can cast it’s animus without being forced”.

Under Animi rules, it states “a beast can be force once per activation to cast it’s animus”.

So, if a beast has Rage as it’s animus, on feat turn, it can cast that animus TWICE (once forced, once NOT forced).

Is this correct? Is this as intended (or was the intention to allow a beast to cast it’s animus for free?)

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Interesting, my knee-jerk reaction would be that you can only cast the animus once, but it’s free. But I dunno, I can see how being able to cast twice sounds like a valid interpretation.

just like any “self” range animus you can be forced to cast it more than once but the older instance expires when the newer is cast on the same target. if the are not a “self” animus then it can be put on different targets and all will stay.

Interestingly enough, by this logic there’s actually no limit to the number of times a warbeast could cast it’s Animus. Since the Animus casting restriction is tied to forcing and it’s not forcing under shadowtoungue’s feat, it could (based on my reading) cast it’s animi an unlimited number of times

That’s probably not intended

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Page 43 begs to differ:

Warbeasts have dormant arcane spells called animi that can be
tapped by the warlocks who control them. A warbeast can be
forced to cast its animus, or the warlock whose battlegroup the
warbeast is part of can treat the animus as if it were one of its own
spells while the warbeast is in its control range.

**A warbeast can be forced to cast its animus only once per **
activation at any time.

At the moment, all of the Animus are Self only, so it wouldn’t provide much benefit.

However, in a 2 caster game, if you had Warchief Bagadibawm, he could get infinite Fury on his Feat turn. However, he will have already ended his Activation, so limited benefit.

ok I missed that. nice to know. Thank you.

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Rage is a RNG6 2 cost animi, and is available on the cantankerous head

Here is Shadowtongue’s feat:
image

Note that it specifically says “without being forced.” A warbeast that casts its animus under Shadowtongue’s feat does so without being forced.

Here’s what the core rules have to say about forcing a beast to cast its animus:
image
With the key word being “forced”:

A warbeast can be forced to cast its animus only once per activation.

Under Shadowtongue’s feat, a warbeast can use its animus without being forced. That means it can also be forced to cast its animus. The rules do not say “A warbeast can use its animus only once per activation”, only that it can be “forced” to cast its animus only once per activation.

So, a warbeast can cast/use its animus twice during its activation during Shadowtongue’s feat turn: once without being forced due to the feat, once to being forced like normal.

(And: oh @elswickchuck , save us from something something whatever)

This also implies that a warbeast can cast its animus for free more than once due to the feat.

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Past editions have ruled that a warbeast can only use its animus once per activation, full stop, even if it’s doing so without being forced.

The feat doesn’t say otherwise, so I agree. :slight_smile:

Hopefully Chuck can clarify for this edition. :slight_smile:

There isn’t a single animus in the army that cares about this. Our only non self animus is rage.

Condescension aside, you should know that references to rulings from past editions are offered by users not as the “final word” on a matter, but to provide context behind the possible and likely intention of a rule/ability/etc, especially in the absense of any significant change in the wording of those rules/abilities between editions.

I’ll be first in line to say that if the same question has been asked across 3 editions, it’s time to update the wording in the rules.

In the meantime…

Just understand my position: ultimately past years’ official/unofficial rulings (often) will not abandon substantive similarity.

The warbeast can cast its animus only once in this scenario.

It is cast for free

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In general, here’s my position on the topic.

Sometimes, rulings from past editions are instructive. Sometimes they aren’t. A lot of stuff in the core rules has changed over the years, either directly (it was rewritten) or indirectly (related rules were rewritten). Attempting to untangle those changes is a pretty big waste of time. :slightly_smiling_face:

It is quite literally impossible to verify any rulings from previous editions. Relying on memories of rulings which almost certainly hinged on the precise rules language in question is generally risky.

Sometimes, old stuff is applicable. There’s a substantive difference between (for example) the questions “Is Crit Amputation supposed to work on monstrosities?” and “Does Shadowtongue’s feat work as written?”

In one case, we have a rule whose language that hasn’t changed in (almost) decades, which has had ample opportunities to have changed to fit a change of intent, and which is effectively insulated from core rule changes (“critical hit”, “column/branch”, and so forth hasn’t changed) anyway.

In another case, we have a rule that is new in this edition, whose intent we have no (reasonable) ability to guess, and whose precise wording probably didn’t have a direct analog in previous editions. Had the feat said “forced”, that’s one thing, but it is written in a unique way. Poorly-remembered/poorly-documented past rulings would serve as very poor guides in this case.

In brief: err on the side of “rules as written”, except when the natural conclusion of “as written” leads to some obviously absurd situation (such as charging in circles, or forfeiting a combat action but still making attacks, or whatever.) That dividing line is obviously subjective, but the idea that a feat allows a warbeast to use its animus multiple times is not, on the face of it, absurd, so there’s not a compelling reason to believe otherwise.

That’s my take, at least. :slightly_smiling_face: