Medveditsa Crippled Head and Hand of Vengeance

This came up on Facebook, but I don’t see it posted here. If Medveditsa gains Hand of Vengeance, and subsequently gets her head system crippled, what happens?

  1. Does she lose Hand of Vengeance immediately, as per the Crippled Head rules?

  2. Does she retain HoV for the round because it is a granted buff?

Personally, I lean toward option 1 because HoV is an ability (advantage) granted by the head system, but I’m interested to get an Infernal ruling on this.

The name of the effect on Medveditsa is “Hand of Vengeance.” The “+2 to melee attack and melee damage rolls” is what it does, not what it is.

Per the above rule, Medveditsa loses all special rules on its head – i.e. Hand of Vengeance – when its head system is crippled.

Hand of Vengeance is the rule giving Medveditsa the +2 to melee attack and melee damage rolls. In this example, it has lost Hand of Vengeance. I see no way for a model to benefit from a special rule it has explicitly lost. :slight_smile:

This is no different from the following example:

Model A is hit by Stygian Abyss, which says, in part, “the model hit suffers Blind for one round.” The effect “Blind” does a whole bunch of stuff but the effect is named Blind, and it lasts for one round.

Model A shakes Blind, or if you prefer, we can pretend that it’s affected by something that specifically says it “loses” Blind.

Does it make any sense at all to claim that the model is no longer Blind, but still suffers -4 MAT and DEF, and cannot run/charge/slam, etc. ?

This is pretty much my logic as well. It doesn’t matter what advantage HoV confers, or when it is triggered. You lose it then the head is crippled.

Sorry for necro-ing this thread up but I have a similar question relating to this.

  1. HOV triggers, granting Medveditsa the buff.
  2. Medveditsa’s Head system gets crippled.
  3. On my turn, I use Old Faithful to repair a medveditsa’s Head system.

Does Medveditsa gain back the buff from Hand of Vengeance?

Please pardon me for quoting myself, but:

If Medveditsa’s head is crippled, it loses Hand of Vengeance. Models cannot benefit from a rule they no longer have. :slight_smile:

Yeah but my question is medveditsa got the head back.

Whoops! Somehow that question just did not parse. I’m not sure how; it was very clear. Sorry about that! :slight_smile:

You lost the rule, so the bonus was lost as well. The effect is no longer in play. The bonus doesn’t have any memory, simply because nothing in the core rules or the special rule says anything like “if you lose this effect and gain it back, it still works.”

In practical terms, essentially: once the effect token is off the table, it’s gone.

I think this is analogous to this situation:

  • A monstrosity has 3 focus during the opponent’s turn.
  • The monstrosity’s Brain is crippled.
  • The monstrosity loses all the focus it has on it.
  • The Brain system is repaired next turn, but you don’t get the lost focus back. Once they’re gone, they’re gone.

Once you suffer the effects of the crippled system, you lose the rule, the effect is no longer in play, and any state the rule carried is wiped. Otherwise, stuff gets very, very weird when players have to track the state of effects that are not in play. I think it’s fair to say that’s a bit of a stretch and definitely not supported by the standard rules! :slight_smile:

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I think it would depend on when the triggering/enabling condition is checked according to the rule text.

In this instance, it is triggered when the damage is taken, so I agree with Michael that it makes most sense that the trigger is lost when the rule is lost, if the rule comes back it still needs a fresh trigger, the old trigger is not “remembered”.

I think there was topic with the same question, where elswickchuck wrote that bonus is still valid in that case but I can’t find this topic.

Were you thinking of one of these threads?

I cannot find anything on this forum that suggests anything contrary to my earlier answers. :slightly_smiling_face:

You will not get hand of vengeance in this example.

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Thank you, Chuck!

(extra characters for the character machine)