Butcher, Rage, and the Devil's Advocate

The Grave Robbing card says you can give a rage token to a model that has a rule allowing it to gain rage tokens. Butcher2’s feat allows him to gain rage tokens.

Now, Grave Robbing only specifies that the model needs to have a rule enabling it to gain rage tokens, which technically B2 does. Therefore, according to my interpretation, RAW, Devil’s advocate and all that, B2 can gain a Rage token during an activation other than his Feat turn.

Now I believe he won’t be able to USE it outside of his Feat turn, and there’s no reason to try to use it before the Feat and save the token for the Feat since you could just use it during the Feat instead, but still: loophole! :grin:

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I’m pretty confident you have to be able to have a rage token to get the rage token under any circumstance. Another good example is Molok’s Soul Taker ability which goes away when his head is disabled. Does he technically “have a special rule that enables it to have soul tokens”?

Its probably best to understand grave robbing as requiring you to be under the effect of a special rule allowing you to have the tokens.

That’s an interesting one. The Feat grants the ability to give Rage tokens to models, they don’t innately have a rule to gain them on their own. So you definitely couldn’t give the Rage tokens to other models.
As to an inactive Feat counting as a model having a rule or ability, that is an interesting question.
I would lean towards “Yes”, but can’t find a rule to strongly say so.

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My strictest RAW interpretation would be that you can use the card because he technically has a special rule allowing him to have rage tokens, but the token wouldnt actually make it to Butcher since nothing pre-feat allows him to have a rage token on him.

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The Grave Robbing card allows you to give it to him. It says “A model can only gain a token […] if it has a special rule enabling it to gain […] tokens”, which he does, so he CAN gain a token, then it says “Give that model one […] rage […] token”, so that allows him to have the token. At least that’s how the language reads to me.

I don’t think there’s any real advantage or anything? I just think it would be funny to use the card a turn or two before you feat and just leave the rage token on him until feat turn.

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I imagine that’s the intent, but “has a special rule” is a little ambiguous. Perhaps it should be written “benefits from a special rule”?

I was ready to walk away from this since its so inconsequential in this case. But i just realized that this might allow Molok to keep his soul tokens after getting his head crippled.

In short, can you keep tokens on you if you dont have a rule on you allowing them to be there, as long as they got there legally?

My intuition is no, but that doesnt count for much.

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Good question. The rules allow you to gain soul tokens and the like, but is there a rule explicitly saying that you can’t have tokens unless currently affected by rule that specifically allows you to have them? What is the term again, permissive and restrictive rule sets?

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Sure there is! You can only play two command cards per turn. Using Grave Robbing turn 1 could let you save the token so that, on your feat turn, you can play two other command cards.

It’s a niche interaction, but not purely academic.

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Good point, guess this would actually matter then. If anyone played Butcher2 that is…

You’re all missing some key wording. :slightly_smiling_face: Butcher2’s rule does not say anything at all about gaining rage tokens. Butcher2’s feat allows you to place rage tokens on models under specific circumstances and provides very specific instructions on what can be done with those tokens.

If you want to go truly RAW: you cannot play this card on Butcher2 for rage tokens at all. Note that all the soul and corpse token rules specifically include language that says “This model can gain X tokens.”

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Oh, good catch. Wow, RAW sucks for B2.

And now the grand question: What is the intended interaction for this card with models that can interact with these tokens?

patiently waits for infernal/developer input

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This was not an intended use of this card. It works with effects like Soul Taker, Body Snatcher, and Rage Fueled that allow a model to accumulate those resources naturally.

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So it was never intended to work with Butcher2? Butcher 2 was so much fun to play at the end of Mk3, and now he’s just back to being a forgotten and neglected afterthought. It makes me sad. I actually got excited to think there was SOMETHING that helped him out, even if it was very minor.

What about the question of “do you keep tokens if you lose the rule that said you can gain them”?

Thanks for clarifying.

Also note that the card enables you to give tokens of a different type than the one you are normally allowed to have.

So if your model can have Soul tokens then with this card it can also get a Rage or Corpse token.

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Simplest fix I can think of is to just rename the butcher feat tokens to Hate tokens instead, so there’s no question if they interact with Grave Robbing

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