Ambush and forfeit

Question regarding ambush… The rules indicate that a model ambushing must forfeit its combat action or movement the turn it arrives on the table.
Comparatively, a knocked down model must forfeit its combat action or movement to stand up.

So, semantically, an ambushing model could forfeit its combat action to run as it forfeits its combat action the turn it arrives on the table. Correct, farfetched or Englich noot mi natiw languaj?

(The ambushing model could not aim as you have to start your normal movement and do nothing to aim.)

pip

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That is not quite why or how it works. :slight_smile:

Please see the highlighted sentence below:
image

So, you can’t “double forfeit” something.

When models make their Normal Movement, they choose one of these mutually-exclusive items:
image

“Run” goes on to explain that you’re required to forfeit Combat Action before you run, which makes running incompatible with the highlighted sentence under “Forfeiting Normal Movement or Combat Actions.”

Knockdown states that you have to choose the “Forfeit” option of either Normal Movement or Combat Action in order to stand up.

Aiming requires that you specifically choose the “Aim” option from the Normal Movement menu.

So: if you Ambush, you really do have to forfeit either Normal Movement or Combat Action, and you can’t run for the reasons described above. :slight_smile:

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Thanks!

I will align with the consensus on the matter.

But… coming back to solving the semantics the question and more precisely of “you cannot forfeit for multiple effect”: Models normally deploy, same for advance deploy. Ambushing models are put in play, not placed. While aiming or standing up could be considered an effect (the list of restrictions next to the stand up rules is also quite extensive). So put in play is then considered an effect.

pip

It doesn’t matter which “effect” Ambush has on the models. It’s still required forfeiture. As seen in the rules text Michael posted, required forfeiture doesn’t need an effect for which you forfeit it.

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Many thanks to Kapoteeni for the assist. :slight_smile:

I promise, the matter is as simple as it appears in my original reply. :slight_smile: The Warmachine rule set is very straightforward.

Although it’s not strictly defined in the rule book, an effect is, essentially, a spell, feat, or special rule. Think of it as “something you’d use a token to mark.”

In regards to the quoted section: the rules for forfeiting are very straightfoward. The forfeit rules don’t make any distinction about how models are put into play, so the forfeit rules really don’t care how the model got put into play. Because no other standard rules or special rules apply in this example, then it’s quite honestly this simple:

  • Ambush says you have to forfeit either normal movement or combat action.
  • You can’t voluntarily forfeit something if you’re required to forfeit it, and you can’t forfeit the same thing for multiple effects.
  • Models have to forfeit their combat action to run.

You have to choose “Run” to use your Normal Movement to run, so you obviously can’t choose to forfeit Normal Movement to satisfy Ambush. That means you can only forfeit Combat Action if you want to run. (And, Run says so.) Because of the second point, you can’t voluntarily forfeit Combat Action to run if you’re also required to forfeit Combat Action (Ambush), and you can’t sacrifice the same thing for multiple effects.

So, you can’t Ambush and run. :slight_smile:

And that’s the issue, it does not say it like that. It says “Ambushing models/units must forfeit either their Normal Movement or Combat Action during the turn they are put into play”.

On the other hand, the ambush summary says: “Ambush – In most scenarios, this model does not have to deployed at the start of the game. Instead, it can be placed at the end of any of your Control Phases after the first turn (p. 49).” I did not notice that there the word “placed” is used instead of put, which is more commonly associated with “effect”. So no double dipping now applies. :slight_smile:

But again, not an issue, if the consensus is that you cannot ambush and run, it’s solved and topic can be closed.

pip

You can not run the turn you ambush in

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