5/22 disengage wording update

Here is a screenshot of the updated wording for disengage

I’d like to ensure I understand what this change means. We have two cases:

Case 1:
I begin a models activation, the model has side step, it is engaged, it goes to its combat action, makes an attack, after the attack is resolved it is still engaged, it side steps out of engagement. Because I began my normal movement engaged I must now forfeit my combat action.

Case 2:
I begin a models activation, the model has side step, it is NOT engaged, it advances into melee range, it goes to its combat action, makes an attack, after the attack is resolved it is still engaged, it side steps out of engagement. Because I began my normal movement not ended I do not forfeit my combat action.

This leads to two questions. First can you forfeit your combat action while already in your combat action? Second assuming I can forfeit my combat action during my combat action that happening friends on my models state at the start of my normal movement?

Side step happens during the combat action. Restrictions from disengaging happen during and are checked for during the movement action.

Any moving your model does during combat action should have no bearing on disengagement.

If you begin your Normal Movement engaged, and you do not use your Normal Movement to advance out of the melee ranges of the models engaging you, then nothing happens.

If you begin engaged, and you leave any of the melee ranges of the enemy models engaging you (ignoring Incorporeal models), you forfeit your Combat Action. (Unless you have Unstoppable, of course) :slight_smile:

Disengaging only ever happens during Normal Movement.

Side Step happens during Combat Action, which is after Normal Movement. Side Step and Disengaging do not interact. (Because, obviously, you can’t forfeit something after you’ve already used it.)

And no, you can’t forfeit something twice. See “Forfeiting Normal Movement
or Combat Actions”:
image

I’m pretty sure godoftheds is correct, the new wording of Disengaging does not say it only triggers off of Normal Movement. The updated text only references starting Normal Movement engaged, it doesn’t specify that the advancing out of engagement trigger only happens during Normal Movement.

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Yes, but you can’t go back and forfeit something, either.

You pick one of the Combat Actions. When you choose the “Make an initial attack” option, it’s too late to forfeit, because those choices are mutually exclusive.

That’s how I see it, at least. :slight_smile:

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I can see the reasoning I guess, but even if that’s technically correct it’s not very intuitive. I don’t see any reason why the “during it’s Normal Movement” bit can’t be added back to the text to make it clearer since the actual important part is “…advances out of one or more of those models’ melee ranges…”

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Raising stocks on unstoppable :thinking:

More or less we changed the wording to support how people have already been playing it. We where closing a loophole.

See Disengaging by passing through melee ranges

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I think folks generally understand the additional text in the update, but the removal of “during its Normal Movement” when talking about advancing out of melee is what’s causing confusion.

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Well I’ll make the official call here then if it helps.

This is only during normal movement, you can’t sac an action your in the middle of.

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Can/will that clause be added back to the rule text, just to avoid potential future confusion?

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I will present it to the rest of Development.

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Helga has cyclone but not unstoppable. Can she cyclone out of melee and not lose her combat action under the new rules?

As currently written, no. She would forfeit her Combat Action.

Normal Movement is the first part of a model’s activation.
image

There’s nothing before Normal Movement. The model activates and it is immediately in its Normal Movement portion. You can cast spells before you make a choice about what to do with your Normal Movement, but it’s still your Normal Movement.

If you start your Normal Movement engaged, and during your Normal Movement you advance out of engagement of the models engaging you (and Cyclone is an advance), and you do not have Unstoppable, you forfeit your Combat Action.

Please note: this is only true at this particular time. We don’t know if there will be any further wording changes. :slight_smile:

The Activation timing chart puts Normal Movement at step 4.

There are 2 steps that occur that cannot be interrupted at the start of the activation, then an opportunity at step 3 to perform an at any time action, such as casting a spell with focus.

So at step 3 a leader can cast a spell that creates an opportunity to advance before the normal movement phase has started and engaged state is checked.

If the model leaves the engagement area of the enemy models during that movement , it starts its normal movement phase not engaged and is not required to forfeit its combat action.

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The move is a full advance, but since it can be cast outside of Normal Movement as an “at anytime ability” (like all leader spells), and combat action sacrificing happens only during Normal Movement per a ruling on this thread, you should be okay to cast it without losing Helga’s combat action by casting it before the Normal Movement phase (or after, provided you haven’t left combat during Normal Movement)

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You’re going to need to prove there’s a part of your activation that happens before Normal Movement. :slightly_smiling_face: You might have an effect that has to be resolved before resolving Normal Movement, but there are only two parts of an activation:
image

Somewhere in the bowels of Discord or Facebook was an offhand response from a PP staffer - I want to say it was either Chuck, Erik or Loren, but I’m not certain - of “Yes that works” to the question of whether a warcaster/warlock could begin its activation engaged, cast Flashing Blade to kill what was engaging it, and then begin its Normal Movement not engaged.

No, I don’t have a link. Good luck finding it.

Probably better to light the @elswickchuck signal.

Lol it was definitely not me in regards to facebook or discord

But prior to this hub we had discussed and posted that flashing blade would work

So cyclone will also work in regards to this

Most recent it was early in this disengage discussion that we stated, prior to go with raw to where we are at now

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Just to clarify:

The intent is that you have to advance out of melee using your Normal Movement in order for Disengaging to apply? (“Using your Normal Movement” really boils down to “choosing Full Advance”, because you can’t charge if you begin engaged, and Run won’t apply for various reasons, and you don’t advance if you choose “Forfeit” or “Aim”.)

And, to spell it out: any non-Normal-Movement effects that grant an advance of some sort do not count for Disengaging, correct?